On Invocation: Following the Zeph’s Lead
A few days ago Chris (aka, the Lutheran Zephyr), wrote about an experience he had with a Roman Catholic family while serving on his rounds as a hospital chaplain. The full story is available here. The gist of the article was the he recited the Hail Mary along with the family and their priest, and went on to suggest that invoking the saints makes sense to him on some level. This of course grabbed my interest. Anyone who has read any of my reflections on this issue would know that I have long felt that my asking the Blessed Virgin, or St. Joseph, or any of the other blessed dead in Christ to pray for me is no different than if I asked my wife, my pastor, my mom or my friends to pray for me. I recall during the time when my wife and I went through the two miscarriages, and how I asked readers of this blog to pray for me. I could feel prayers ascending. In conjunction with those request prayers, I knelt in front of an icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help and begged her, as a mother, to pray for us, especially for my wife who suffered the loss so much more acutely and immediately than I did. I know she prayed for me, just like many of you did.
Before I anger Lutherans with this statement and accusations of anti-confessionalism come into play, let say that I am well aware that the scriptures never explicitly command us to pray to saints, and indeed, it was probably foreign to biblical writers. I am also more than aware of the sole mediatorship of Christ. I Timothy 2:5 makes clear that Christ is in fact the sole mediator: There is one God and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus who gave Himself as a ransom for all. That verse, taken alone, seems to be the proof text most opponents of the practice point to. However, I am not sure what to do then with I Timothy 2:1, in which the writer also asks for prayers from others: First of all then, I urge the supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men. This leads to a vital question: does asking others to pray for us equal a denial of the sole mediatorship of Jesus Christ?
I think it really depends on how you read the entire passage. If you examine the rhythm and tone of I Timothy 2:5, it appears to be a liturgical fragment that is included in the body of the letter, and common occurrence in the epistles. Further, the text seems to be suggestive not of how prayers are to be said or directed, but that prayer is in fact a participation in the unity of God. The passage goes something like this: 1. Let us offer prayer for everyone; 2. Let us offer prayers for rulers, so that the rest of us may live in peace; 3. God desires that everyone come to know truth; 4. There is one God, whose message was mediated to us through Jesus Christ.
For me, if you accept this basic structure, it seems to say that Christ has mediated the message of grace to we humans, and says little if anything about the proper way people should pray. In short, I think this proof text is an incredibly weak one.
I know full well what CA XXI says. I understand the argument. I think I even understand why it was included. I have no doubt that the cult of the saints suffered has suffered abuse throughout the centuries, both during the period of the Reformation and even today. I have read some prayers to saints that do, in fact, make me uncomfortable. If a devotional activity to a saint begins to take higher precedent than devotion to Christ, or if the activity ascribes authority or ability to a saint that belongs to Christ alone, then it can be abusive and abused. However, unlike the Reformers, I do not feel it is necessary to throw out the baby with the proverbial bathwater. If we believe in the communion of saints, do we not believe that we are still held together in an essential unity with them? And if so, is asking them to pray for us any different than if I posted a prayer request on my blog? Should I also cease from praying for my parishioners? Does that mean that I am trying to usurp the mediation of Jesus?
I feel very safe asking the Mother of God to pray for me. I sing Marian antiphons to my daughter while putting her to sleep. I ask St. Joseph and St. William to pray for me as I live my vocation as a father to both an adopted and a biological child. But my belief in these saints is not a belief in their own merits, or in their own powers. In fact, my veneration of Mary has less to do with Mary and more to do with her son, whom I believe to be both my Lord and my God. I believe in the prayers of the saints because I believe in who they pray to. I follow the One that they follow. They help inspire me to continue on the path, just like a lot of living folks here pray for me, encourage me, and help me on the path that we are all on. Can this be abused? Yes. Trusting in anyone more than you trust in Christ is spiritually dangerous. Should this practice be required of all Christians? No, for me it becomes a matter of adiaphora in the greatest sense.
Now I want to address one final thing. I know that there are some who would suggest that if this is my practice then it must be what I preach and teach from the pulpit. It is true, at one level, that I do teach that Mary should be highly favored, and that we as Lutherans make too little of her. However, I am able to draw a line between where my private interpretation and practice ends and where my public teaching office begins. When I took my ordination vows, I knelt in front of my bishop and promised to preach and teach in accordance with the Lutheran Confessions. So I do. My public teaching doesn’t cross that line. I have stated on occasion that this blog is not a function of my public teaching, but more a journal (though a publicly accessible one) of my private opinions, and thus I feel more free to explore these issues here.
I want to leave you with one final thought. On his old blog Verbum Ipsum, Lee posted a great quote from Robert Jenson that I think really sums it up for me. I leave it to you to consider with gratitude to Lee for originally posting it:
Those of the Reformers who thought otherwise needed to produce more stringent arguments than any I am aware of their adducing. Simply saying with Melanchthon that there is no scriptural mandate to address individual saints, will not do. Magisterial Protestant churches live by all kinds of practices, perhaps most notably infant baptism and the authority of the New Testament canon, for which no scriptural mandate exists, and which can be justified only by chains of argument far longer than the one just developed for invoking saints. On infant baptism Luther’s final word was simply that this had long been the practice of the church, and that he saw no decisive argument against it. One must wonder why the same cannot be said about invocation of the saints. — Robert W. Jenson, “A Space for God”

March 16, 2007 at 4:37 pm
This is well put; you define precisely the difference between asking a saint to pray for you and praying to the saint.
One sort of related issue I’ve wondered about is the concept that there are people who (supposedly) are “healers” by prayer. I know that some have been proven to be quacks. But what I struggle with is whether God would intervene because a certain person prays or because a prayer is said in a certain way. I can’t buy that.
Can you comment on this? I mean, illuminate, if you will, what is the difference or effectiveness of one person’s sincere prayer and having the prayers of many, including possibly the saints, assend to God regarding a certain issue/person.
March 16, 2007 at 6:48 pm
I think asking a saint to pray on our behalf is different that praying “to” said saint in that we are not asking the saint to give us, or bless us with anything that would be frome God.
Asking St. Jude (patron saint of lost causes) to pray on on behalf of one who is terminally ill that God grant them comfort (praying for)is quite different than askin g St. Jude to grant comfort (praying to). Does that make any sense?
March 16, 2007 at 11:48 pm
PS, you weren’t asking me, but wanted to say that I think prayer works in myriad ways. It changes the pray-er, it attends to the relationship between God and supplicant, and, in the case of corporate prayer, it enfolds the supplicants in the warmth of the community of faith. When I pray with the saints, that is what I feel.
That said, I don’t think God looks for some sort of “critical mass” of people praying, nor does God only answer if you do it right or through (heaven forbid) a particular medium. I don’t deny, however, that some people may be particularly gifted with efficacious prayer. I feel it in my pastor, although as far as I know he is a saint only in the simul iustus et peccator sense.
March 17, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I pray the Hail Mary on a regular basis and have several Mary icons on my home. She is Blessed among women…not the 4th person of the trinity. We are wired as humans to venerate those who have gone before us…MLK, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Martin and Katie Luther etc…their witness lights out way.
March 17, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Concerning healing…I think the Bible speaks of gifts of healing that people have as a charism from the Holy Spirit. However, I don’t know how that works for modern times. I tend to be very skeptical of those who say that this is their gift, especially if the “gift” is being exploited for financial gain.
What makes prayer effective? I think you have to define the term effective. I think our natural tendency is to assume that God acts as our sugar daddy in the sky, and thus gives us gifts for being good or doing things right. So we tend to tie effectiveness to doing prayer in the right way, much like those who say that if you just have enough faith, whatever you ask in prayer can be yours (the Joel Osteens of the world). I’ve never quite bought that.
I don’t think God can be manipulated in a way that makes God give us what we want, even if what we want is a good and noble thing. I want God to heal my terminally ill brother, but just because I ask God to do it doesn’t mean that God will instantly take away the disease. So is that an ineffective prayer? I don’t think so. It is effective insofar as I know I can go to God with anything, but that God may not give me an answer I am looking for. It then helps me reframe what I ask for. I don’t ask God to take away my brother’s CF, but I ask him to just be with him, to let him know he is not alone, to give him strength to fight the disease, and wisdom to know when it is time to go home. I ask God to be with my longsuffering mother, who is watching her baby die. I ask God to forgive my lack of faith and my anger, and sometimes I even get really angry and ask God to give an account of why this has happened to someone who is innocent and deserves nothing of the sort.
I don’t know if this answers your question, PS, or if it just creates new ones. But this is what my reflections have been over the past few years.
March 18, 2007 at 12:47 am
Hey …I’m never sure if I’m supposed to call you by your Christian name or LutherPunk….hah…so hey you!
Believe it or not, I came across this discussion several months ago in an uber-confessional LCMS myspace group. They were arguing for the practice of asking for the intercession of the saints as well. So tell all of your detractors to go after them too.
Most of the answers are generally the same that I’ve heard from Roman Catholic friends.
I am surprised that the subject of HOW the saints can pray for us hasn’t come up either in your article or Zephyr’s. That’s what personally makes me question the practice. I think it assumes a fully understanding of the intermediate state than what most Lutheran theologians can claim to know. But then again there are certainly passages in Revelation which indicate that they are certainly praying for us. For me – the answer is that the saints simply are praying for me without my requesting it. Maybe that’s too colloquial, and it certainly lacks a feeling of personal connection.
On a completely unrelated note. I think the real beauty of what you’ve written here is a clear understanding of what it means to be a Lutheran blogger and what you can’t and can’t assume the stuff we write here means in our personal lives and ministry lives. Bravo for that! Bravo!
P.s. You’ve got an extra “saint(sinner)” praying for all of the things you’ve written here. Pax brother, the Lord does not sleep nor slumber, Your help comes from Him, He watches your coming and going from now until forevermore. (loose Ps. 121)
jW
March 19, 2007 at 12:27 am
LP,
Thank you for your wonderful and faithful articulation of your devotion to the saints. It is passionate and persuasive. Thank you.
In response to jWinters, I have wondered how the saints hear our requests for prayer. I know/believe that God hears our inmost thoughts and spoken words, but how does a saint hear my prayer request? Well, there’s lots of things I don’t understand, and this hardly seems to be reason to jettison a practice of prayer and devotion. I’ll leave the metaphysics to the metaphysicists.
However, what’s most been sitting with me from your post over the past few days has been the distinction you make between your public ministry and your private faith practice (a distinction I surely make in my chaplaincy work). It’s still sitting with me for some reason, and I’m not sure what to make of it. So . . . if my brain is still working I hope to write about this distinction later in the week.
Peace to you, and thanks.
March 19, 2007 at 2:36 pm
It’s good that you can separate private devotion or interpretation from public teaching.
I am discerning a call to ministry, initially within the ELCA and now with the Episcopal Church, and I am not sure I could publicly teach the Lutheran faith while privately holding attitudes and interpretations which are essentially catholic, if not Catholic.
The ELCA needs your witness: even if you don’t publicly teach some of your private interprtations, the latter necessarily will inform the former, and this will be a great blessing to those around whom you preach, teach and live.
Good ‘blog; many blessings to you.
March 19, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Your long post certainly tries to explain things but it just doesn’t work for me. I don’t get the Marian devotion in the RC Church that seems to be spilling over to some Protestants. They seem to address more prayers to Mary than they do to any person of the Trinity.
I can ask someone to pray for me but they’re people in the here and now. I don’t talk to my deceased grandparents and ask them to pray for me. I don’t know how they’d do that. I know their bodies are buried in the ground and I trust that one day they will be raised. But I don’t know how they’d hear me or how they’d pray for me.
I’m not trying to make fun or what you’ve written or what you practice. I just don’t get it. I pray to my Lord and God.
March 19, 2007 at 4:56 pm
I think Jenson’s essay is an incredible piece and quite possibly my favorite piece by him. I think the issue with Mary is when she gains titles such as Redemptrix, only understandable if she is Redemptrix because she has a specifically unique relationship with THE Redeemer. We may not pray to her for redemption, since she cannot grant it. That alone comes through Christ.
But I believe that it is perfectly solid Confessionally speaking to say that the saints are praying for/with us, and if that is the case, then asking them to pray for us isn’t all that bad. As long as we do not place our trust in them above all others…
But LP… I think you are on perfectly acceptable ground.
Peace,
Brian
March 19, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Wow, some really good comments here. First, thanks for reading the post. It is a subject that I care about, and one which has made me feel alienated in the church at times. It seems that a few things have emerged here.
1. I want to stress that I think people should merely not be forbidden or discouraged from this practice so long as it is evangelical in orientation. I can think of it much like private confession: all may, some should, none must.
2. How do we know the saints hear our requests? I don’t really know. I think this is what Tom is getting to (Tom, correct me if I am wrong) when he distinguishes asking aliving person and asking a dead person to pray for him. Chris hits on this as well. Metaphysics being what they are, I simply don’t know how to answer that questions.
For me, I tend to look back at the early church, and see that there was some semblance of practice of invocation pretty early on. I can find references that date from the early third century in the writings of Clement, Origen and Cyprian, though early references may exist. Someone pointed out the Shepherd of Hermas to me once, which would bring us back to very early sources, but I can’t recall the quotation and the reference seemed to be vague.
Anyway, it seems that it was a practice in the early church, and I am not sure how they developed their practice based on the metaphysical questions at hand. If anybody has any info on this, I would be curious to learn a bit more here.
3. The line between public and private…my, what a sticky question. Jorge nails this one: at some point, one informs the other. The truth is that I don’t know that the line is always as neat and clean as I tell myself it is. There is a lot more to this one, and maybe I need to spend some time reflecting on what it means. I am also curious about other thoughts here. Where does private life end and public life begin? Or is that a false dichotomy based on a fragmented understanding of the self?
Anyway, thanks again. And to all you new folks, welcome. I hope to hear from you again.
March 20, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I teach at an orthodox Jewish school; Some of my colleagues see me and accept me as I am, and I know some of my fellow teachers —and these are in the minority— think that my Christianity is a foolish and even wicked thing.
Publicly at school, I attempt to be honest about my beliefs but not put them forward unless someone or some situation asks for them to be clarified or mentioned. I am always a Christian at school, but whether or not I’m *publicly* or perhaps a better word is *explicitly* Christian is another story.
Maybe it is more accurate to talk about a dichotomy of explicit vs. implicit teaching or belief. Your teaching might be explicitly confessional Lutheran, much as your faith is, even though both might have implicit elements that are not necessarily confessional.
Does that make sense? There is a true dichotomy here: public/private, explicit/implicit, etc. The definition and boundaries of this dichotomy are fluid and sometimes hard to pinpoint, however, which leads tot he difficulties.
March 21, 2007 at 1:31 pm
As me old Jewish mum used ta say
” Whats the harm?”
Good Post
Rick
March 22, 2007 at 3:49 pm
[...] Mar 22nd, 2007 by Lee I don’t think that I linked to LutherPunk’s good discussion of invoking the saints. Here it is. [...]
March 23, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Great post; great thoughts.
I have been known to pray for the intercession of the saints…have no need to spelunk the metaphysics of what that means other than reaffirm the doctrine of the Communion of Saints…and have no qualms, as a card-carrying Lootern, doing so.